Semi-State Discussion (August 7, 2008)

Colin: I don't think it's any secret that the semistates are hardly equal in quality. No one can argue that. What almost everyone will disagree on is just how uneven it is and what, if anything, should be done to remedy the situation. Last year's situation was simply to add one more qualifying with minor shifts based on the track tournament line up. I'm not of the mind that the current alignment is awful, but I do think some shifts can be done.

What would you suggest, if anything? Do we need a major revamping or just need to move a couple teams around?

Brandon: I think that in a perfect world, we could just split the state into four equal parts using US 31 and Interstate 70 as the boundaries. Of course with travel and such this is simply a dream and would never happen.

I think that last year proved that the system does its job of getting four additional teams to the state meet, but failed as there were still MANY great teams left home. Only Noblesville (who was 6th at Franklin Central) finished in the top half of the meet. People expected it, but it really did nothing to add excitement to the state finals.

I am a fan of round numbers for some odd reason. Either five semistates of five teams advancing (25 teams) or go back to the old format (20 teams) would be my idea of a perfect tournament series format.

Colin: If we were to use those as boundaries, can you give us a breakdown of the top teams in each of the four semistates?

I agree that the new system was not much of improvement. Sure, four extra teams got to attend the dance, but is that really want we want? Isn't part of the allure of the state finals that so few teams in such a big state get to go? Of course, the other proposal I saw moved a lot of teams around but we still ended up with one really dominant semistate, even more so than Franklin Central has been in the recent past.

Brandon: Well if you use the boundaries that I suggested many of the powers would be split up. The problem is that US 31 travels southeast once it is south of Indy which leaves a large portion of southwest Indiana on its own. This format would have made the four semistates look something like this last season. Not really a remedy because great teams in Zionsville, Pike, and Ben Davis still go home. Warren Central, Perry Meridian, and Indianapolis Roncalli would have benefited however.

Northwest:
1. LaPorte
2. Carmel
3. McCutcheon
4. Munster
5. Chesterton
6. Michigan City

Northeast:
1. Fishers
2. Northridge
3. Carroll (Fort Wayne)
4. Fort Wayne Northrop
5. Noblesville
6. Huntington North

Southwest:
1. Columbus North
2. Bloomington North
3. Terre Haute North
4. Seymour
5. Bloomington South
6. New Albany

Southeast:
1. Franklin Community
2. Franklin Central
3. Floyd Central
4. Warren Central
5. Perry Meridian
6. Indianapolis Roncalli

Colin: Last year, the solution I heard was to take all of Hamilton County, Boone County (basically that's just Zionsville) and Tippecanoe County to the New Haven Semistate. That's a ridiculously stacked meet. Had they done so, the advancing teams would have been Fishers, Carmel, Northridge, Northrop, Carroll and Noblesville (assuming they went to six teams, which at that point was not in the discussions I don't believe).

A bunch of coaches in the Fort Wayne area got a petition together so that the proposal never went through, blaming gas prices (what don't we blame on either gas prices or the Bush administration anymore?) among other things. How can you blame them? That semistate would have been monstrously more difficult than any of the Franklin Central meets of the past.

Our solutions are pretty similar. Remember when someone said you were the king of Indiana cross country and another person told you to pick up the application in Hamilton County? Well, that's probably true so whatever semistate we send all those teams too will most likely be the most dominant, right?

Brandon: Yeah, the way that things are heading now Hamilton County is the running hotbed of the state. Fishers, Westfield, Hamilton Southeastern, and Carmel are not going anywhere anytime soon. That is the area of the state that is growing the fastest and there are no signs of it stopping anytime soon.

At least my proposal (though it is functionally ridiculous) would send Carmel and Zionsville one way but Westfield, Fishers, and Hamilton Southeastern another. There is not one right answer.

I like a five semistate idea best but scratch my head at the logistics. The system is working as it is now by IHSAA standards, but if that is the case then one would argue that the system worked before being revamped as well. I am sitting here staring at a map of the state and am struggling to find a way that makes everyone happy. But like the NCAA basketball tournament, regardless of what changes are made, people are going to be unsatisfied.

Colin: Seeing yours broken down by semistates, ours look very similar. I haven't broken mine down by any major highways like you have, just made revisions to the current system. Of course, I haven't looked at all the logistics of it so a couple of the semistates may have a lot more teams, meaning bigger sectional meets.

Here's what I suggest: Break Hamilton County up in half (include Boone County as well) with the west side (Carmel, Westfield, Zionsville) going to New Prairie and the east side (Fishers, HSE, Noblesville). Also, anything south of Johnson County (notably Columbus North) goes South. I think Columbus going south (yes, a biased plan so let the message board whining begin) is a no brainer here.

Here are three reasons Columbus schools should go south:
1. Columbus is south of Martinsville and Terre Haute and parallel with Bloomington Nashville (Brown County), all of which go to the southern semistate.
2. Columbus North has a weekday track dual meet against Jeffersonville. I’d say that's pretty far south.
3. The town of Columbus has a laundromat called "The Warsh Room" with an 'R'. I've spent long enough parts of my life in Fort Wayne and Indianapolis to know that a place of business with a name like that has to come from southern Indiana.

I also think, if things balance out, that we should go back to five teams from each semistate. It makes more sense to have five advance from each level.

Based on a few predictions, here's how my proposal would have made the semistates last year (state finish in parantheses if available).

BOYS

Franklin Central
1. Franklin (5)
2. Franklin Central (11)
3. Warren Central
4. Pike
5. Ben Davis

New Haven
1. Fishers (1)
2. Northridge (4)
3. FW Northrop (8)
4. Noblesville
5. Carroll (6)

New Prairie
1. Carmel (3)
2. LaPorte (2)
3. McCutcheon (7)
4. Munster (9)
5. Chesterton (14)

South
1. Columbus North (10)
2. Bloomington North (15)
3. Seymour (19)
4. Floyd Central (17)
5. Terre Haute North (16)

GIRLS

Franklin Central
1. Cathedral (11)
2. Chatard (7)
3. Center Grove (12)
4. Franklin Central
5. Perry Meridian

New Haven
1. Carroll (3)
2. Northridge (9)
3. Noblesville
4. DeKalb (13)
5. West Noble (16)

New Prairie
1. Westfield (1)
2. Lake Central (2)
3. Carmel (3)
4. West Lafayette (8)
5. Valparaiso (10)

South
1. Columbus North (7)
2. Bloomington North (5)
3. Bloomington South (15)
4. New Albany (22)
5. Madison (24)

This makes one semistate quite a bit stronger than the others, but notice that they're different for the boys and girls. I feel like that's a good sign the stronger sites may change from year to year.

Brandon: That sounds and looks like a great plan. Why Columbus schools do not stay south in the tournament is the biggest mystery in my mind. There are fewer schools and much more distance between schools in southern Indiana, but that is irrelevant to this argument.

The state tournament has a sort of "anti-climactic" feel at times. Many of the teams advancing from Franklin Central breathe a sigh of relief that they made it through while others can simply coast.

Running is a bit different though. There is the argument about how long an individual can hold a peak and how coaches change their philosophies around peaking their athletes just to advance to the state meet. For example, the teams "on the bubble" at Franklin Central MUST put it all together for two weeks in a row. Whereas, teams in other parts of the state can simply "run to advance" and let it all hang out the next week. This may sound like spilled milk, but is true with running more than other sports.

Put simply enough, it is tough to have two amazing races within a span of a week's time.

On the boys side, Fishers and Carmel ran their best races of the year last season at the Brebeuf Jesuit Regional. Both "hung on" for the next two weeks and Fishers got the job done. I think that had the state meet been run two weeks earlier (the regional round), Fishers blows the field away. Let's not forget that LaPorte was only ten points away last season...

Colin: Not only was LaPorte ten points away, but if one of Northridge's top five runners performs anywhere near his usual the Raiders shock the state and win the meet. I don't think we can blame Fishers "sub-par" (they still won the state title, though) performance on the alignment, though. Teams that can truly contend for the state title don't have to peak or even run their best race at the semistate (no matter which site) to advance. All you have to do is not implode (a la Lawrence North in 2004).

I suppose I want to say that as a disclaimer since I've often gotten tired of the constant bickering from some of the Franklin Central Semistate people. Yes, it is a hard road, and yes, we should do some minor revamping to even things out a bit. However, the purpose of the state tournament is to get the champion and top five teams through. The current system does that, it would just be nice if some of the really good teams didn't have to stay home because of unfortunate geography. Of course, there will always be casualties. The goal should be to design a system that minimizes them.

Brandon: Yeah, I agree that the current system does the job as far as getting the necessary teams to the state meet. For the teams that placed outside of the top six at Franklin Central, the medal stand was probably outside of reach anyway.

Lawrence North's "implosion" in 2004 was a prime example of what can go wrong though. They were one of the state's best all season and were ranked #1 in the state going into the tournament. Unfortunately, they ran terribly and went home on that day. Making another NCAA basketball tournament reference, their "resume" would have been good enough to get them to the big dance, but they did not get the job done when it needed to be done. Is that fair? Absolutely. They knew going in what they needed to do and failed to do it.

When this discussion gets back going every year, the debate gets pretty heated. Often arguments such as "Semistate strength is cyclical." get brought up. While anyone who looks in the history books can see that this is the truth, I still don't see the strong teams in central Indiana going anywhere soon. If anything, the middle of the road teams are getting better and better each year, which is a good thing. Is this a direct correlation to the central portion of the state's strength? Are other teams stepping it up a notch based on what other local teams are doing? Who knows?

You honestly do not believe that teams in other parts of the state have an advantage if they are in a different semistate? I think that there is something to be said for it, but it does not make enough of a difference to matter. What is more important? Winning a semistate title and coming up lame at the state meet or placing in the top five at your semistate and then running your best race of the season at the state finals and leaving with a ring?

I am one who has experienced this. In 1999, we won the Franklin Central semistate crown and were on top of the world. The meet was a great one, but not as stacked as it has been recently. We defeated all but two teams (Portage/Penn) all season long going into the state meet. Then we placed 7th the following week at the state finals. I would trade in the semistate win for a podium spot in a heart beat. I am sure that other guys on my team would agree. Who knows what role our semistate "peak" played in this scenario. I think about it often though.

Colin: It is cyclical but has been stuck on the Franklin Central Semistate for a while. I think part of this is the population and school size going into that area. Another part is the socioeconomic advantages of some of the parts of that semistate.

As far as the state meet goes, I don't necessarily think being in one semistate against another is an advantage or disadvantage. In the past seven years, six of the state champions have come from the toughest semistate. Everyone runs hard seven days before the state finals. Seriously. Except for perhaps a ridiculous frontrunner, every single person runs as hard as he or she possibly can regardless whether his or her team is handily going to win, on the bubble to advance or just happy to be there after finishing fifth at the regional.

Now, it is hard to rebound from an incredible performance in a week's time, but that is a matter of peaking properly and being lucky.